FLOW w/ Misty Copeland & Caryn Campbell
In this specially commissioned web series co-produced by Grantmakers in the Arts, FLOW WITH DR. DURELL COOPER, features conversations between Cooper and influential people from the Global Majority leading in the arts philanthropic sector. The overarching question this series investigates is what narratives exist that harm us and how are we intentionally developing strategies to mitigate the harm to foster healing in communities of color? Dr. Cooper invites his guests to take a deep dive into the themes of intersectional justice, equity, solidarity economies, and time machines.
In this episode, Dr. Cooper meets with world renowned dancer Misty Copeland and Executive Director of The Misty Copeland Foundation, Caryn Campbell, at Red Rooster in Harlem. The conversation centers on liberation, leadership, and finding the courage to walk in your light. The three of them also discuss the origin story of the Misty Copeland Foundation and explore new models for paying it forward to the next generation.
A full transcript of this episode is available below.
Dr. Durell Cooper (DC): What's up everybody? We are here for another episode of Flow in front of the world famous Red Rooster to talk to none other than Misty Copeland and Caryn Campbell from the Misty Copeland Foundation. Come with me.
And we are back with another episode of Flow and I couldn't be more excited than I am to be joined by Misty Copeland and Caryn Campbell, both of the Misty Copeland Foundation. Welcome to Flow.
Misty Copeland (MC): Thank you.
Caryn Campbell (CC): Thanks for having us.
DC: So Caryn, we'll start with you. If you wouldn't mind telling us a little bit about yourself and how did we get here today?
CC: My name's Caryn Campbell. I'm executive director of the Misty Copeland Foundation, and I started in January. I started out in college going to school for TV film, then went to work in film production in Los Angeles. Out of college, I worked at Paramount. After that I went to work for Spike Lee also in film. And from there, I had kids, stayed home for a little while, started volunteering, ended up working as a volunteer at the Children's Storefront, which is here in Harlem, a tuition-free school for preschool through eighth grade. Then from there, I went to Alvin Ailey American Dance Theater, and now I'm happy to be here working at Misty Copeland Foundation.
DC: And Misty, I know you really don't need an introduction, so I won't try to do one 'cause I wouldn't be able to do it justice, but would you mind telling the viewers a little bit about who you are?
MC: Well, I can introduce myself. I am Misty Copeland. I'm a principal ballerina for American Ballet Theater. I'm also president and the founder of the Misty Copeland Foundation. So I started out dancing, I guess I'll tell you about my dance life. I started out dancing and moving my body around the age of seven. I started choreographing even though I didn't even know what that word meant, but I would hear music being played throughout my house and would just want to move my body to it. It was also an escape from a lot of chaos and instability in my home environment. My mother, I believe, had married her fourth husband by the time I was seven, and I had been to more than 10 schools, and we were finally living in a place where I felt like this was home to me in San Pedro, California. So my mother put me and my five siblings into the Boys and Girls Club, and it was really life changing to be a part of a community center that had tutoring and mentoring and a place that I could go to after school where I was safe and could kind of dive into different areas of athletics and the arts, which was all new to me. And it was around the age of 13 that there was a local ballet teacher who came into the Boys and Girls Club and was offering a free class on the basketball court and I happened to be one of the students that took the class. She was looking for more diversity to bring into her local ballet school. I ended up training with her for three years and living with her and her family so that I could catch up on the training since 13 is very Carynto start in this field. And by the time I was 17 years old, I was living in New York City dancing for American Ballet Theater.
DC: Wow, take us back to walking into your first dance classroom as a student. Did you know immediately this is what you wanted to do with the rest of your life or did you kind of come to it a little bit later?
MC: It took me feeling safe in that environment. I felt comfortable, I felt safe at the Boys and Girls Club, but this was such a new form of movement, of music than I'd ever experienced. So I would not say from that first class that this was something I knew I wanted to do. I used to choreographing to Anita Baker and Aretha Franklin, Brian Carey and George Michael. So I was like, what is this classical music? I felt no connection to it. The environment was very different from what it was at the Boys and Girls Club. It was very calm, it was very quiet. And it was the first time that I felt this sense of stability and safety. There was this sacred space that I could be vulnerable in, and you're so vulnerable, you're wearing a leotard in tights and I was surrounded by people I didn't know, but at the same time, I'd never felt so comfortable in my skin. And so I think once I was in that environment, I knew immediately this is what I meant to do. This is what I want to do. I can't imagine not having this outlet in my life. And again, it was the first time that I'd ever felt that safe and that I could express and process the things that I was going through, but in a way that worked for me, which was I was so shy, I didn't like to speak. So through movement, it was just perfect for what I needed at that point in my life.
DC: Oh, you bring up such an important point around safety and creating the environment that is necessary in order for growth to happen. Thinking when I think of safety and nurturing and caring environments, I think of mothers. More specifically, I think of my nurturing mother or my alma mater, Southern Methodist University, which Caryn, you and I have in common. So at SMU, you were a TV and film major. So how do we go from TV and film to arts admin?
CC: I really think that TV and film to me, and this job in particular is kind of the culmination of everything that I've done in my life and in my career. So TV and film, when I worked there, it was, especially working for Spike Lee, it was a startup. It was all hands on deck, having to do everything and know and learn so much so quickly. And I think that being at the foundation is similar. I also think that coming from TV and then going into fundraising, you have to be organized, you have to be extroverted to a certain extent and wanna talk to people. And then working at Ailey, working in dance in a similar culture and just learning the world and the language. So it kind of has all come together so that when actually, when Misty offered me the job, I thought, this is it. Like this is everything that I've ever done in one place.
DC: Ah, okay, so you mentioned Misty Copeland Foundation a couple of times, MCF. So Misty, what inspired you to start MCF?
MC: Yeah, I mean, it's so connected to everything that you're saying, and it's actually been the experience of the team that we've brought together is that we feel that this has been like a culmination of our life experiences and goals and missions that have kind of come to fruition through this experience, through the Misty Copeland Foundation. And I wanted to start the foundation because I knew that there was so much value in all of the experiences I've had as an artist, as a young person that grew up in a community that didn't have access and opportunity to the arts, to the fine arts, to ballet, to classical music. And as a black woman, I feel that I have a very unique experience and it's a space that needs to be filled. And so it also just came together at a very important time in the world. I ended up with an injury to my back right before the pandemic happened. And so I was already kind of thinking about how am I using my voice and my purpose and my platform in a way that is equally as important as what I do on the stage. And then the world shut down and then the murder of George Floyd and it really made me step back and think, what do these communities need in this time? And I think that especially us who are so invested in the arts, understood the importance and the value of what it could do, especially for a human being, in a crisis. And so it just kind of sped up the idea of me wanting to do it. It was like, okay, this is the time, it needs to happen now. I think also just experiencing from my own experiences with my colleagues as black and brown dancers, what they needed, what they've needed since they were children, and what they still need, which is a community. And I think that's been really important within the Misty Copeland Foundation, is creating a space. We have an incredible advisory council of incredible people who have been able to lend so much of their own experiences in helping us to develop the BE BOLD program, which is its first signature program, which stands for Ballet Explorations, Ballet Offers Leadership Development. And just, again, through my own experiences of being able to reach back and give these communities an opportunity to be exposed to something that's going to give them the tools to grow in so many incredible ways. It's not just about becoming a professional dancer, but it's about becoming a better human being, a better human and part of your society. It's becoming a leader. It's just being exposed to what it is to be a part of a team, to have empathy, to be dedicated and committed to something. I could go on and on about why I wanted to start the foundation. I'm extremely passionate about it and I think that it's something that so many communities need.
DC: I couldn't agree with you more. I wanna stay with you for a little bit, but we're gonna shift the focus to Caryn here. She's the first executive director of MCF. You told us a little bit about your vision and how much the organization means to you. Why was Caryn the perfect person at this time to be able to take the foundation to the next level?
MC: Yeah, I think that it was really important for me to have someone who's had a lot of varied experiences. I think that it's so beneficial. Like, I think back to just, whenever I speak to dancers and they're asking for my advice in terms of is it important for me to just focus on classical dance or should I experience other genres of movement and that's what I feel about Caryn's experience is that she's had a taste of lots of different things that make her very well-rounded. It was also important to have a woman of color. And I'm just so fortunate that it worked out this way. We knew that as my incredible advisor, Jane Polin, has said that these people who are right for the position and that are incredibly good at what they do, are not just sitting around waiting for someone to call them. They're working at other incredible organizations. So it was just really about the timing and I'm just so fortunate to have found you.
CC: I'm so fortunate.
DC: So Caryn, you do get the phone call or the email. Congratulations, you're the new ED of MCF. What's going on in your mind? How are you feeling, walk us through the day.
CC: It was incredible. It was so amazing to think that I was going to get to work with Misty and not knowing her well then and we've actually said that we haven't known each other for that long, but we feel as though we have, but knowing many dancers and how disciplined and hardworking they are, I knew going in that it was gonna be an amazing experience and that I would learn a lot. She would teach me a lot. Jane has taught me a lot. Just thinking about it before it began, I knew it was gonna be an incredible experience and it was just the continuation of my journey.
DC: So one of the big focuses of Grantmakers in the Arts with this initiative is narrative change. And Misty, I think about your career and narrative change has always been central to what it is that you've been doing. I mean, breaking so many barriers. How would you say MCF is also contributing to this narrative change? You started to allude to it a little bit earlier, but if we could just go a little bit deeper into that piece.
CC: I mean, I feel that the program that we've created, BE BOLD, which is the initial program for the foundation, is really about teaching children about ballet in a new way. We're gonna show them about Black dance history, leadership, social justice, and having fun. So having two teaching artists and a musician in a classroom where they're not necessarily learning in a traditional way and they're not hearing classical music, it's contemporary music. We've taught the teaching artists and musicians how to train and teach these kids and how to engage with the children in a different way and I think that is a huge change. That's a sea change. And I do have to say that working with a child psychologist so that we can actually show a portrait of a dancer so that we can see what the impact is that we're having on these kids and how it's changing their behavior is really important as well as working with you, Dr. Cooper, it's been incredible. You've been an integral part of creating this framework and the framework, really, we're calling it a framework, not a curriculum, because it's changing constantly and we're basically building the plane as we're flying it. So that's a new way of doing things as well.
MC: Yeah, it's, as Caryn is saying, it's been really important that we have professionals on board who understand what it is to develop a child and their experiences and you have been such a big part of it, and I would say in helping us to understand what narrative it is we want to tell, and that we wanna be leaders in that way. And so just being able to create a space with you, with our teaching artists, and have them open up and share their real and true and raw experiences of what it's been like to work within the classical ballet environment and world, and understanding the things that need to be changed, the narrative that needs to be changed from within because of our experiences, but I thank you for creating an environment like that for these dancers to feel that they can open up so that we can learn, so that we can not repeat the same mistakes that have been perpetuated for so many generations and that's really at the root of the BE BOLD program as well, is trying to not perpetuate these traumas that a lot of people feel that come into the dance world, but also going in and creating a new way of storytelling and connecting with these different communities. So we're starting out in the Bronx, coming into Harlem as well, through the Boys and Girls Clubs, and we're looking at other community centers and organizations that align with us, but it's important that we connect with these communities and their culture, so it doesn't feel like it's this white European art form that we're bringing into to these communities. And they're like, well, what does that have to do with us, but it's through the music, it's showing different musicians, people who look like them, teachers that can relate and connect to their experiences and that's really vital and something that's missing from the ballet world and ballet community.
DC: Oh, I couldn't agree with you more on that. And kind of continuing along the narrative change piece, you've just written your eighth book, the Wind at My Back. Tell us a little bit about what it's been like touring it and even the process of writing it because I mean, listening to you, you were going through such a tumultuous time at your point, really recovering to get back to the stage. What was it like for you during this writing process?
MC: Every writing process is so unique and what I've experienced and also at different points in my life and my career, but the wind at my back was extremely beautiful because, I mean, it's my mentor Raven Wilkinson. It's our story. It's the incredible journey that she had throughout her career as a black ballerina in the 1950s, and then us coming together and how she impacted my career moving forward. I don't think I would've been promoted to principal dancer had she not come into my life. But the process of writing this book, I was pregnant at the time. I'm thinking about what this means to give birth to a Black boy in America today and it was a very emotional process. But I think that it's so important as an artist for me to express that we can share our experiences through so many different lenses and so many different ways of expressing ourselves. Just because I'm a dancer doesn't mean that's the only way that I can express myself, and that's been important with BE BOLD as well is giving these students, giving these children the agency to say, to know that they can speak up for themselves and it's not just through their bodies, but through their voices. And that's something that's been so important for me that I've learned from Raven Wilkinson, was what that looks like to be able to stand up for yourself, especially as a Black woman in a very White world that is dominated by men, though most people probably wouldn't think of the classical ballet world in that way, but it is, and having that kind of support allowed me to find my own voice within my career. And all of that is expressed in the book and it was just a really beautiful experience to be able to think back on and our relationship and all that Raven has done for me and for generations of Black and brown dancers.
DC: Oh, wow, what I'm thinking of when you mention that is how important mentorship really is in our lives to help us get to these next levels that sometimes we don't even know exists or if we do see it, it might be in like TV and movies, but to actually have someone who has been there and done that. And Caryn, I would say looking at your role at MCF, like the amount of leadership that you bring at that level to the organization, you provide a light for everybody to look to and you're really a beacon as to how to lead in those spaces in those ways and kind of thinking about that and how the field of dance has unique challenges, you would say, particularly for people of color working within those spaces, what are some of those challenges that you see as, or we'll say, opportunities that you see as sort of most pressing that MCF is hoping to address?
CC: We've gone into the community a little bit already being in our second cycle, and we've had caregiver orientations where we've talked to the parents and whoever's raising the children that are in part of the program. And I would say that we're already, in talking to these people, we've already heard stories of children wanting to be more self-confident, wanting to feel safe in their environment, things that I think often they haven't felt, especially as Black and brown children in particular. I think that's a big part of it right there. And then there's body image problems or things that we're trying to make it easier for them to talk about. There's a lot of mental health issues. I feel like you and Dr. LeBlanc has been helping the teaching artists understand the children and how to work with them where they are. And especially coming out of COVID where there've been so many delays and so many issues for this age of children, we're gearing the program towards eight to 12 year olds. So I think in those ways, we're really trying to make change in a meaningful way.
DC: Oh, I love that, and one of the things that you're kind of making me think of is even though we might be looking at these different opportunities from our different lenses, so as dancers or as theater artists or as visual artists or as musicians, it really exists in this ecosystem where there's all these different moving parts. And unfortunately, one of those moving parts is philanthropy and like funders, oftentimes what we see on the stage is because, well, that's what people have given to. So for like funders who might be watching this, what's something that we could say to them to encourage them to participate in this narrative change, particularly as it relates to people of color within dance? What advice or nuggets of information could we drop to them to kind of start to think about our existence in a slightly different way?
CC: I would say really what they need to know about BE BOLD in particular is that we're a new program, but we've been very successful. We're gonna be in our one year anniversary of the programming the third cycle in September. And it's very important for everyone to understand what we're doing that we wanna be successful, that we're striving to make this program something that we can scale up as we move forward, but in the moment that we wanna make it a sustainable, long-range program that we can reach many children, have many teaching artists, but we need everyone to work with us in the community. We need everyone to be on board with what we're doing, see what we're doing, and be open to helping us, whether it's through advice or connections or financial help. We could use it all as a very new organization.
DC: Emphasis on the financial help piece, please. mistycopelandfoundation.org, click on donate, please. So looking forward, so I go to the website, I'm super excited about BE BOLD, I want to give to it, what can I expect out of MCF over the next five years?
CC: We're so excited. We wanna just grow. Right now we're creating this amazing program, but we wanna find a way to make it possible for us to grow. So we need more teaching artists and more musicians, and we're going to train them and we're gonna look for more sites of where we can have the programming. It's after school for a reason. I mean, Misty came from after school. It's so important and we know, we've seen the data that especially coming out of COVID, that doesn't exist for especially arts programming in Black and brown communities. So we really want to engage the communities and have people help us grow the program.
DC: Caryn, I kind of wanna go back to this idea of funders and how they can support the work of MCF. What does it mean to you for a funder to really show up in true partnership and not just, “here, I'm gonna donate some money” and then you won't hear back from me until it's time for some sort of report on what you did with the funds that I gave you. What does true partnership really look like and how can some funders really support the work?
CC: There are so many ways that we can be in partnership to collaborate. We've talked about having some opportunities for the children to be able to see performances or to be able to, as I said before, I didn't know what an executive director was, but for them to be able to have the opportunity to learn about different jobs, different roles that people hold and being able to meet them. So that's another piece of it, that's part of the mentorship part that we hope to develop more of. So it isn't just about writing a check, it's about expanding our universe, the MCF, and BE BOLD universe to include people who have connections in all different areas. So not just to be, and giving us money, but also to expanding our world. And we also talk about governance and how board members, boards need to understand what the arts education realm looks like and what is actually happening for these children. They need to be educated. So we need to expand with and collaborate with our partners, the funding partners to your point, so that we're not just asking for money, but we're having more conversations and making it possible for them to see what we're doing and also how to help us grow. So whether that's being able to take kids to a performance at Alvin Ailey or American Ballet Theater, or having a dancer come in and talk to the kids about what they do and how they got there, or a musician and visual artists, just so that we grow and expand what they learn and know about the world.
DC: I love that. And Misty, if I may pivot just a little bit, you are making your comeback to this stage. How has that process been like for you post everything that's happened in your life personally and professionally?
MC: I feel like within the pandemic, it allowed me to look at dance and the arts in such a different light. When we didn't have a stage to perform on in that time, it made me think about, well, what is a stage and what does that really look like for different communities? And so I feel like I'm at a point in my life and in my career where I'm looking at the stage in very different forms. So I'm excited about this next project that I have coming up. It's a short film. It's actually very much aligned with the work that we are doing within the Misty Copeland Foundation. It's a social justice art activism film focused on the community of Oakland, California. I'm starring in it, I'm dancing.
DC: Wait, is this a scoop? Did I scoop you on this?
MC: The premier is happening soon. I can't say when, but it's something that we're going to be screening to many communities. It's focusing on intergenerational relationships and equity and also the housing crisis in Oakland, California and gentrification. So it's a beautiful story and it's all being told through dance. There's no dialogue. And so this is the beautiful thing about the arts is that finding different ways of getting it out there to more people. And that's kind of where I'm at, I think in my life and career, is finding unique and powerful ways to bring dance to as many people as possible.
DC: Does it have a title?
MC: It's called Flower.
DC: Flower, I love that. Misty and Caryn, you both have something in common, and that's being a mother. How has motherhood really impacted your life? It's like, how has it not, but how has motherhood impacted your life?
MC: I'm very new to this. She's got a lot of more experience than I do.
CC: Not that much more.
MC: I think that being pregnant with my son Jackson, we started working on creating the foundation before I got pregnant with Jackson, but with this idea in mind that I want to be able to create a better opportunity, a better world for children like my son. And so it's definitely been a big part in shaping how I look at these young people that it's so important that we're putting people in front of them who are qualified, who want to teach children, who love working with children that have the experience, the fire and the passion inside of them. And so I think being a mom has really made me step back and understand the importance of that. It's not just about whether or not they've taught ballet class before, but there's so much more involved in working with children.
CC: And I think being on the other end and having a Jackson.
MC: We both have Jacksons.
CC: That it is critical to see children in this world, this arts world, and what it can do for them, whether it's dance or music or acting, whatever it is, that it makes such a huge difference in their lives and the people they become that I think it's so important for us and that's what I love so much about being a part of the foundation and in particular working with BE BOLD as the first program because we're going to be able to help do that to future generations of children that might not have this opportunity.
DC: Any final words that, Caryn, we can start with you, that you would like to share with the viewers?
CC: I think that in this time of coming out of the pandemic, it's really important for people to see what children are doing, like how they are living their lives, especially in these black and brown communities where they don't have an opportunity for so many things and I feel like that's what's so important about BE BOLD. It's just opening something up for them, something different for them to see. Because if I were to say anything about my own life, I, as a 10, 15, 20 year old, had no idea what an executive director was. So just having an understanding of what life is like in the world for them, not necessarily to be the next Misty Copeland, although that would be fantastic, but just to understand who Misty is and what her journey's been, and how it is so important for all of us to keep growing.
DC: Misty?
MC: Yeah, I mean, I think that the people that I speak to most are young people and giving them hope and inspiration and motivation to be more than they ever thought they could be, because that's been my life and my journey, and it's because of the arts and I think that for your viewers that it's just important to really understand the power and how necessary and how valuable arts education is and that it's not fluff, it's not a side dish. It's something that deserves our full commitment. And so I hope that through the foundation and through this program, that we can set an example and show the power of what dance can do for many communities in many children.
DC: Oh, well, thank you, thank you both so much. You continue to inspire me and I know you're inspiring many others. And BE BOLD, I know it's a name of a specific program with MCF, but it's really how you both have lived your entire lives and as a result of that, you've given others the courage to do the same. So, thank you.
CC: Thank you.
MC: Thank you so much.
DC: That's it everybody, another episode of FLOW in the books. Thank you all so much for watching. Thank you to my guests, Misty Copeland and Caryn Campbell. Thank you to Red Rooster for hosting us, and thank you to Grantmakers in the Arts for your generous support of this episode. And most importantly, thank you to viewers like you. Until next time, I'll see you on FLOW.
About the Contributors
Misty Copeland leads the Misty Copeland Foundation (MCF) as president of the Board. She is the first African American female principal dancer at American Ballet Theatre and a transformational figure in ballet. She has also established a high-profile identity as a champion of change. Misty is the author of the bestselling memoir Life in Motion and books for children including Black Ballerinas: My Journey to our Legacy, Bunheads, and Firebird, and has earned acclaim for her performances on Broadway and in film.
Caryn Campbell (she/her) is executive director of the Misty Copeland Foundation (MCF). She joined MCF from Alvin Ailey American Dance Theater (AAADT), where she served as director of Patron Engagement since 2014. In her role with AAADT, she devised new approaches to increase the donor base and advance fundraising through creative campaigns, initiatives, and cross-functional collaborations. Prior to her work with AAADT, she served as director of development at the Storefront Academy of Harlem, annually raising $5 million and implementing a $1 million strategic plan. Caryn began her career working in the film industry holding positions with The De Laurentis Company and Paramount Pictures. She also worked in various production roles with Spike Lee’s 40 Acres and a Mule Filmworks, working on Lee’s epic Malcolm X and Girl 6. Campbell holds a BFA from Southern Methodist University.
Dr. Durell Cooper is one of the nation’s most prominent cultural strategists specializing in systems change and collaborative thought leadership. Prior to founding cultural innovation group, llc, he was a program officer at the New York City Department of Cultural Affairs (DCLA). He also worked at Lincoln Center for the Performing Arts, inc. In the marketing department conducting outreach to veteran service organizations and for Lincoln Center education recruiting and training teaching artists as well as several community engagement initiatives aimed at increasing equity and inclusion in NYC public schools. Prior to that he was a public-school teacher. Durell is also a proud veteran of the U.S. Navy. He is also the creator and host of the web series, Flow, and the podcast, Fluency with Dr. Durell Cooper.
